Well here is one for you:

Cindy's Poker. Bad site.

why?

I recieved a free $10 to play with...and was limited to the low level limit tables..ok. no porblem...I ran the $10 (playing limit .25/.50 games) up to about $67. I then dropped down to about $31, and played a buy in tourney for 10+1 and won 120$ giving me a balance of $140.66.

I have asked to withdrawl this and as per their site:
Raked Hands
A hand in which a player at the table contributed to the pot for a minimum of $0.15 in ring games. Hands where no contribution to the pot has taken place will not count towards any promotional playthrough. In addition, every $1 in-tournament fee will be
counted as 1 raked hand. Hands played at fun money tables will not be included in calculating the number of hands played for releasing the Bonus Amount.

in addition from their site:

10.5 In accepting a bonus, promotion or tournament offer, the player understands that they need to meet the requirements specified in the offer before any withdrawal of the bonus amount can take place.
Unless specifically noted in the promotion, playthrough requirements for all bonus money or money won from private freerolls will be 300 raked hands. Once the minimum playthrough requirements have been impleted,
> the bonus amount will be released to your account to be played with and/or cashed out.

from my chat with the support guy:

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Stan'
Stan: Welcome to M2S2 LIVEchat service. How may I assist you?
you: is the cardroom manager around
Stan: No he is not available right now
you: who is in charge right now with max authority
Stan: Shift manager speaking? How may i help you?
you: stan i have a problem
Stan: What is the problem?
you: i was told yesterday that i have only played 39 raked hands...that is impossible.
Stan: May I have your username please?
you: krsbwn234
Stan: One moment please...
Stan: Mr. Brobyn, you have 39 raked hands
Stan: it's true
you: hold on
you: the definition of a raked hand is where i have put at leat .15 into the pot correct?
Stan: That's right
Stan: The definition for raked hands is : House rake $0.01 - $0.99 = 1/2 raked hand
Stan: House rake < $0.99 = 1 raked hand
Stan: Tournament buy-in fee for every dollar = 1 raked hand ex. $5 buy-in fee = 5 raked hands
you: ok..i took the origional 10 bucks up to almost 67...then lost most back down to 22 or there abouts....at LIMIT POKER
you: i would like to request the complete hand history of my account...including start balance and end balance by hand...
you: of every hand i have played
you: you name the file type...ill reveiw it\
Stan: ??
Stan: Do you want it on your e-mail?
you: yes...
you: i know i have played over 39 'raked' hands
Stan: one moment
you: i also would like the complete hand history for each player in each hand
you: included
you: amounts etc
you: i know you have it...if you look for collusion, etc
Stan: working on it...
you: you have to understand that if you are playing at the minimum limits...in limit holdem, limit 7, and limit stud...going from 10 to 67 as bankroll it is almost impossible to only play 39 hands
you: (at the .25/.50 level)
you: and then lose it
Stan: Unfortunalety this information can not be send out via e-mail. I will paste it here
Stan: 5/16/2006 6:14:56 AM 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 10.00 0.00 0.00 FOLD FOLD FOLD 0 UNLOCKBAL
Stan: 5/16/2006 6:14:51 AM 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 10.00 0.00 FOLD FOLD FOLD 0 LOCKBAL
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:17:12 PM 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 20.66 0.00 0.00 FOLD FOLD FOLD 0 UNLOCKBAL
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:16:08 PM 683098 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 17.25 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:15:57 PM 683094 0.25 0.00 -0.25 3.41 17.35 0.00 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:15:31 PM 683088 2.25 3.85 1.60 3.41 17.60 0.08 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:14:59 PM 683078 1.75 3.35 1.60 3.41 16.00 0.08 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:14:22 PM 683070 1.50 2.40 0.90 3.41 14.40 0.06 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:13:37 PM 683060 1.75 3.35 1.60 3.41 13.50 0.08 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:13:06 PM 683052 0.25 0.00 -0.25 0.00 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:12:21 PM 683042 0.50 0.00 -0.50 3.41 12.15 0.04 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:11:56 PM 683036 0.25 0.00 -0.25 3.41 12.65 0.00 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:11:26 PM 683030 2.00 3.35 1.35 3.41 12.90 0.09 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:10:53 PM 683021 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 11.55 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:10:42 PM 683019 1.00 1.40 0.40 3.41 11.65 0.07 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:10:08 PM 683010 0.50 0.75 0.25 3.41 11.25 0.00 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:09:24 PM 683002 0.25 0.35 0.10 3.41 11.00 0.00 FOLD [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:09:13 PM 682997 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 10.90 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:08:59 PM 682995 0.25 0.35 0.10 3.41 11.00 0.00 FOLD [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:08:50 PM 682991 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 10.90 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:08:41 PM 682988 0.50 0.00 -0.50 3.41 11.00 0.04 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:08:24 PM 682984 0.50 0.75 0.25 3.41 11.50 0.00 FOLD [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:08:13 PM 682982 0.75 1.15 0.40 3.41 11.25 0.06 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:07:53 PM 682978 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 10.85 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:07:43 PM 682973 0.25 0.35 0.10 3.41 10.95 0.00 FOLD [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:07:35 PM 682971 1.00 1.40 0.40 3.41 10.85 0.07 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:07:03 PM 682965 1.75 0.00 -1.75 3.41 10.45 0.08 [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:06:09 PM 682952 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 12.20 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:06:00 PM 682949 0.50 0.00 -0.50 3.41 12.30 0.04 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:05:45 PM 682946 0.75 1.00 0.25 3.41 12.80 0.00 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:05:16 PM 682940 0.25 0.35 0.10 3.41 12.55 0.00 FOLD [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:05:08 PM 682936 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 12.45 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:04:59 PM 682933 0.25 0.35 0.10 3.41 12.55 0.00 FOLD [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:04:21 PM 682925 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FOLD FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:04:04 PM 682921 0.50 0.00 -0.50 3.41 12.45 0.03 FOLD [weese]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:02:59 PM 682907 0.25 0.35 0.10 3.41 12.95 0.00 FOLD [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:02:34 PM 682902 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:01:57 PM 682892 1.75 2.90 1.15 3.41 12.85 0.06 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:01:03 PM 682881 0.50 0.00 -0.50 3.41 11.70 0.04 FOLD [weese]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:00:29 PM 682874 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FOLD [weese]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 10:00:00 PM 682869 0.50 1.00 0.50 3.41 12.20 0.00 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 9:59:34 PM 682861 0.25 0.00 -0.25 3.41 11.70 0.01 FOLD [weese]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 9:58:55 PM 682853 1.50 0.00 -1.50 3.41 11.95 0.06 FOLD [weese]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 9:58:15 PM 682845 0.10 0.00 -0.10 3.41 13.45 0.01 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 9:57:53 PM 682839 0.50 0.00 -0.50 3.41 13.55 0.04 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 9:57:27 PM 682833 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FOLD [weese]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 9:57:04 PM 682828 0.75 1.15 0.40 3.41 14.05 0.06 [krsbwn234]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em
Stan: 5/9/2006 9:56:40 PM 682820 0.25 0.00 -0.25 3.41 13.65 0.01 FOLD [xalia15]
Stan: 0 Texas Hold'em

(Note: they didnt include any of my 5-card stud limit .25/.50 games...or my 7 cards hi/low limit games .25/.50)

Stan: 5/9/2006 9:56:10 PM 682813 0.50 0.85 0.35 3.41 13.90 0.00 FOLD
you: no i need the complete hand details
you: every player by bet and hand...etc
you: every other site can provide it...cause they look for cheats...collusion etc
you: i can go to PP and get it within 1 minute
you: what you provided is worthless
you: you only provided my wins...not losses
you: sorry...it doesnt name the game...
you: and it isnt complete
you: i need full records
Stan: check your e-mail, please
you: k hold on
you: no you didnt provide what i asked for...all hands...with money in them...as per web site..
you: you: the definition of a raked hand is where i have put at leat .15 into the pot correct? Stan: That's right
Stan: The information that you have requested is too big to send it via e-mail
you: i have high speed connection...so do you
you: i would like to review it...
Stan: The definition for raked hands is : House rake $0.01 - $0.99 = 1/2 raked hand House rake < $0.99 = 1 raked han Tournament buy-in fee for every dollar = 1 raked hand ex. $5 buy-in fee = 5 raked hands
you: well let me ask you this...i won a tourney...$120....can i withdrawl the tourney winnings?
you: it was NOT a free roll
Stan: You have to complete the requirement to withdraw the bonus amount
you: or can my account be opened to playing others since i cant find players on the limited tables i am open to?
you: in other words...can i play N/L or bigger limit tables? i dont need access to freerolls
you: i want to make this experience good...not bad
Stan: Tournaments are only available to players who have made a deposit.
you: how about the N/L or bigger limit tables?
Stan: the same requirement
you: ok, so lets sumarize....you cant or wont provide me with a complete hand history...of evey hand with particpants and beginning/end balance and each betting history, i win and want to C/O, you wont let me cause for some reason...you cant back up the data that you state...you wont allow me to play higher....at least where people play...and so i can do nothing
you: i have stated anything untrue?
Stan: There isn't anything untrue
Stan: The system can't be wrong, and when it says that you have 39, so that's true
you: you should talk with the owners of the cardroom...(and maybe cindy as i sent her publists a copy of this conversation - you will butcher her good name) and will post it all over the poker internet boards.
you: i say garbage till you show me the proof
you: but you wont provide it
you: you have it you have to too prevent collusion...which you so fondly put in your rules
you: so either it is one way or another
you: either you have the data...and are afraid to show or share it...or you dont and are screwing people over
Stan: We have that records, but the fail is too huge to be send on e-mail
you: too many people have told me 'dont go there' cause you cant back up the data...i can easily ask PP to provide the complete hand history and they do so
you: via email
you: want me to send you one?
Stan: No I don't
you: so dont try that excuse
Stan: Let me try once again
you: it isnt that large no matter if a comma delimeted file or excel
you: send it all
you: that is all im asking
you: ....ok i think i have been cheated against..now i want all the hands so my personal 'cheater program' can make an alnalysis...is that better?
you: does it matter if the cheater a person?
Stan: Nobody don't cheat you, Sir
you: or the house...
you: no i calim i have played in more then 39 raked hands
you: claim
Stan: The system can't be wrong, and when it says that you have 39, so you have 39 raked hands
you: Raked Hands A hand in which a player at the table contributed to the pot for a minimum of $0.15 in ring games. Hands where no contribution to the pot has taken place will not count towards any promotional playthrough. In addition, every $1 in-tournament fee will be counted as 1 raked hand. Hands played at fun money tables will not be included in calculating the number of hands played for releasing the Bonus Amount.
you: from your own website
you: now lets rediscuss
you: that is from the definitions page
you: please note...i didnt see any....The definition for raked hands is : House rake $0.01 - $0.99 = 1/2 raked hand House rake < $0.99 = 1 raked han Tournament buy-in fee for every dollar = 1 raked hand ex. $5 buy-in fee = 5 raked hands
you: please point that out to me on the definitions page
you: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????//
Stan: This definition is new and I don't know is it already on the website
you: ahhh .... that is crap and you know it
you: if it aint advertized...
you: then it aint true...why not just advertize a $500,000,000 million freeroll open to 5 people
you: and just not pay...
you: same thing
you: look stan...you know you are between a rock and a hard place....you cant back up the claims you are stating...the claims you are stating are false as per your website
Stan: We will fix the statements on the website as soon as possible
you: so the statements are true...(well dahhh cause you are a 'certified' site right? until you change them
you: Changes To This Agreement 26.1 We may, at our sole discretion, make changes to this agreement or the Games Rules at any time. 26.2 The changes will take effect from the date specified when they occur. It is important, therefore, that you log in to the Website from time to time and check to see whether there is a notification of change. It is your responsibility to check from time to time and see whether there is a notification of change. 26.3 If you continue to use the Website or this poker room after we have updated the changes (regardless of the way we have notified of such changes), you agree to be bound by those changes whether or not you have had actual notice of, or have read, the relevant changes. If you do not agree to be bound by relevant changes, you should not continue to use the Website or this poker room any further.
you: you have not made this notification
you: nor any bulliton to this effect...
you: so you are wrong
Stan: ??? ???? ???
Stan: who made it?
you: you just did...that we will make changes to the website...and not notify the players
you: big dirty mudhole u stepped in isnt it
you: i only want to withdrawl my 130.66 and go away...i earned it
Stan: You have to make 300 hands to withdrawal those money
you: but under the rules posted i have
you: unless you prove to me i havent
you: so send me the complete data file
Stan: I have tried too many times, but it's failed
you: based on the posted rules...with no bullitin, i am right
you: no you only have said too big...cant send...see above
you: so stop the BS...either prove it or pay me
Stan: You have to make 300 hands to make a withdrawal. So far you have 39
you: i have done so.
Stan: No you have not
you: based on your own defintion page i have
you: prove me wrong...send me the info
Stan: I told you I have tried
you: no you only have said that its too large...not that you have tried
you: deeper and deeper
you: how large is the file
you: trust me i know...based on the published 'raked' hand def...i know im right
Stan: No you are not
you: and with out notification of the players...you are wrong
you: so your site is a cheat. based on your own rules
you: you cant provide the data. you make new rules with out notifing the players. so where am i wrong
you: and you are destroying the name of Cindy Margolis....
you: is she authorizing this as well...
you: ???
Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.

and email i recieved 3 days later:

-------------------------------------------
my email from support:
Thank you for your email.

You have received a bonus of $10.00 and the wagering requirements for
making a withdrawal are to play 300 raked hands. You have played 39
raked hands so far and your withdrawal is not going to be approved.
A raked hand is a hand in which you personally contribute at least
$0.15
to the pot. You may see more details about the rake here

http://cindyspoker.com/information.aspx?page=rake


If you have any further inquiries or concerns, do not hesitate to
contact us.

Best Regards,
Jeff
Cindy's Poker support

kris brown wrote:
> i have requested that my tourney winnings...non freeroll winning to
be
> withdrawn...it has been 5 days. i am not requesting any bonus money
to
> be withdrawn, just the winnings from a piad tourney.
>
> In addition, I have made repeated attempts regarding the 'raked'
> rule...but all i get is a runaround...as per your own website...
> Raked Hands
> A hand in which a player at the table contributed to the pot for
a
> minimum of $0.15 in ring games. Hands where no contribution to
the
> pot has taken place will not count towards any promotional
> playthrough. In addition, every $1 in-tournament fee will be
> counted as 1 raked hand. Hands played at fun money tables will
not
> be included in calculating the number of hands played for
> releasing the Bonus Amount.
> I am told this isnt the case however.
>
> So at this point I dont want any bonus money...just my tourney
winnings:
>
> as per you website:
> 10.5 In accepting a bonus, promotion or tournament offer, the player
> understands that they need to meet the requirements specified in the
> offer before any withdrawal of the bonus amount can take place.
Unless
> specifically noted in the promotion, playthrough requirements for all
> bonus money or money won from private freerolls will be 300 raked
> hands. Once the minimum playthrough requirements have been completed,
> the bonus amount will be released to your account to be played with
> and/or cashed out.
>
> I have sent several Emails to the manager with no response so i will
> copy this to him, also will send to Cindy Margolis.
>
> Thomas Brobyn
----------------------------------------------------------------

so there is the info...now i know that i have played more then 39 'raked hands' but they wont send me a list of every hand that i put .25 into the pot. they only sent a list of where the take for the house was at least .15.

To win over $57 playing limit...you would play in more then 39 hands (where you put .25 or more into the ring).
Then to lose $37, same thing. that is a swing of $94.

then i asked for just my tourney winings, not 'bonus' money and that was denied.

I have tried and tried...but no response from the poker room manager...and as you can see this stinks to high heaven.

any help would be appreciated.

THomas Brobyn

I dont have a relationship with Cindys Poker otherwise id look into it for you. There are a lot of "Rouge" poker sites and casino sites out there so I always suggest selection one from a site such as this one where you have the ability to try for some info. Any time I have a situation that is not resolved the way I see fit I will remove any casino.

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